March 5, 2021

God fixes our brokenness, an interview with Matt Bassford

God fixes our brokenness, an interview with Matt Bassford

Matt Bassford is a minister in Columbia, Tennessee. In this episode, he talks about how he and his wife dealt with the tragedy of a stillborn birth of their first daughter, Macy and how their relationships with God and other Christians were the only things which could fix it.

This is a difficult but important conversation. I think about how all of us are broken, but we often feel those topics are taboo or need to be avoided. 

Matt's story is powerful. It's also a love story through trial for all his important relationships.

We are all broken. Not all like Matt and Lauren, but all of us need to understand how Jesus can make us whole.

Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/balancingthechristianlife)

Transcript
Kenny Embry:

In this episode of balancing the Christian life, we talked to Matt basford, about how God fixes our broken lives. Welcome to balancing the Christian life. I'm Dr. Kenny Embry. We'll talk about how to be better Christians and people in the digital age. Let's go. So how are you doing? Really? I think our first impulse is to say something like, I'm fine. How are you? But are you? It doesn't take much digging before we find parts of our lives, which are frankly broken. But I think our first impulse isn't to share that, but instead hide it. I understand. I've talked to a lot of people about this idea. And I've been surprised by how open and honest some have been about what didn't work in their lives. And how Jesus was the only thing that could fix it. It seems to me the conversations were embarrassed or reluctant to have are often the most important ones. We don't usually have important conversations on a Sunday morning, and our nice clothes while everyone is on their best behavior. My buddy, Mark McCrary. And I often talk about how some people see the church as a museum of saints, instead of what I think should be more accurate, a hospital for centers. This week, I'm talking to minister Matt bastard, about one of those broken times. He and his wife experience a little over a decade ago. Hey, how you doing, man?

Matt Bassford:

I'm doing well, brother,

Kenny Embry:

One of the ideas that have been knocking around is the idea that we are all what I called wonderfully broken. When we go to church, everyone looks like they're perfect. But nobody really is. Can you think of a time where things didn't go? Well, and Jesus ended up being the only answer for you.

Matt Bassford:

I certainly can. I mean, at this point, after 42 years of living, there are probably several things that I could turn to here. But one that stands out in particular happened in September of 2008, my wife was pregnant with our first there were no signs of any trouble or anything like that. But when the time came for the C section, my firstborn daughter was stillborn. And we did not learn that that was going to happen until it did happen. And so that was a shattering experience for both of us.

Kenny Embry:

That sounds like something that would be very devastating.

Matt Bassford:

I think smashed flat is a pretty fair description.

Kenny Embry:

This sounds like a really trite question. But how did that make you feel?

Matt Bassford:

I would say it made us feel like our whole world had been turned upside down that here we were just floundering around in chaos, as we were trying to grapple with this unimaginable loss.

Kenny Embry:

What kind of questions that bring up for you?

Matt Bassford:

I would say that, that made me get really comfortable with my answers to the problem of human suffering. It's one of those things that atheists have been throwing around for centuries now. That if God could allow horrible things to happen, or could prevent horrible things for happening, it doesn't that he's not good. If he would stop them, but can't that he's not omnipotent. So how does the existence of evil and human suffering square with the notion of a perfectly good, perfectly powerful God? Yeah.

Kenny Embry:

What conclusion Did you come to?

Matt Bassford:

You know, when you're talking about this in the abstract in undergraduate philosophy class, this sounds like a really compelling argument. But in the moment, it's not at all. Because the atheist might jump up and down and point and say, Oh, look, this just shows that your faith is foolish, you haven't fought this thought this through. This contradicts everything that you believe in. But really, I think an encounter with tragedy is a much bigger problem for the atheist than for the Christian. Because if you're an atheist, and you believe that there is no God, there is no afterlife there. There really is no meaning to life, that it's just this little momentary flash of existence, and that it's all over. If that's where you are, then how can you possibly deal with the death of a child? How can you possibly ever come back from that? Because there is nothing in your worldview that gives you any tools for grappling with the monstrosity of what has just taken place. But on the other hand, and this is something that I started realizing Then, and only have come to realize more and more as time has passed. Christianity offers the best answers to the problem of human suffering. It is not as though the Apostle Paul believe That he existed in a world where God would shield him from harm and on happiness. We have a faith that in many ways is premised on suffering. Those same processes. Christians 2000 years ago went through to grapple with the problem of vicious persecution, in addition to all the other problems that we grapple with today. those answers are still extraordinarily valuable. One of the most important of those, I think, is not asking how God could allow me to have a daughter who died. It is acknowledging that even though I sat there and did nothing while that was happening, the father is also someone who watched his son die. Even if I don't know all the reasons. I know that God understands exactly what I have gone through the other dimension, there is that great promise of the resurrection from the dead? That when you are a Christian and you're mourning a loved one, you mourn, you hurt, you suffer, you grieve? But you do not mourn as somebody who has no hope.

Kenny Embry:

You seem awfully at peace with this. At the time, I've got to believe that you were distraught.

Matt Bassford:

Oh, absolutely. What you are hearing now is the evolution of 13 years of thinking about this and dwelling on this and asking, what does this mean, you never stop grieving. The first year is horrible. The second year is slightly less horrible, and so on. But it is always going to remain there. In fact, in our bedroom right now, placed so that we see it, as the first thing we lay our eyes on when we wake up in the morning, is a picture of our daughter, because there was a photographer who came in and took a number of pictures of the body for us. Every time I lay eyes on that there's that staying of memory that to this day, we do not know why she died. And yet the beauty of the presence of God in your life, the knowledge of the hope that we have through Jesus is something that lets you go on and keep living.

Kenny Embry:

Do you remember if you were angry,

Matt Bassford:

you know, it's interesting that people always expect that that would happen. I do not remember being angry at God or outraged at God. Now, I think that that's a perfectly legitimate reaction for people to experience. One of my big things these days is I am going through and I am trying to turn all of the Psalms into hymns. And so I've gotten very comfortable with the the darker psalms that we tend to read through. And there is plenty of scriptural precedent for being angry with God. But that's not where I was. I don't think that's where my wife was either. I there was tremendous suffering for both of us. It is also certainly true that the next year in our marriage was the most difficult year that we've ever experienced. It may well have been that if we had not been Christians that we would have gotten divorced through that. I don't feel like either one of us accused god of being responsible for this or blamed God for it happening. That the devil absolutely, but not God.

Kenny Embry:

You say the next year was really hard. Yes. And that your marriage suffered? Yes. Can you go into any of that?

Matt Bassford:

The problem is grieving requires energy. It's work, it's mental effort. And when you are grieving, a loss that is that bitter. It requires an extraordinary amount of emotional energy. We're used to having emotional energy in our lives to build up and reaffirm relationships for the next year. That was just not something that Lauren and I had, when you don't have to people who are willing or able to invest themselves. In each other in that way, then your marriage is going to suffer, it's going to suffer significantly. And sad to say, I think this is a universal experience that all of the other people who have experienced the loss of children that I've talked to about this, they'll say the same thing. I'll say, yeah, the next year was just really awful. In fact, I had a good friend who has since passed on whose wife divorced him in the aftermath of their stillborn child. If there is anybody who is listening to this, who is going through a similar experience, be very concerned about what this is going to do to your marriage, be prepared for that to be a battle,

Kenny Embry:

what do you wish you could have told yourself back then,

Matt Bassford:

I would say, recognize that life is going to go on, recognize that things are going to get better, eventually. And, you know, even as bad as things were for my wife and me, maritally we got through it, we healed, we have a wonderful marriage now. And I would say that right now, in fact, it's the best that it's ever been, even if it is so tempting to give up on something in your life, because you feel like you don't have the energy for it. Don't give up fight to hold on to those things, five years down the road, 10 years down the road, you will be glad that you did fight.

Kenny Embry:

You live the nightmare that every parent has. What have you learned from this? What's changed?

Matt Bassford:

I think it is impossible to go through something like that, without having your whole worldview changed dramatically. I have read that people are innately optimistic, that if you ask them to put a put a percentage chance, for instance, on the possibility that your house will be leveled by a tornado, people will generally be an order of magnitude, much more optimistic about that than they should be when something like this happens. I think it strips away a lot of the optimism that I know that I live in a world where just awful, calamitous things can happen. There is this comforting illusion that we can slip into that life is just going to continue along this very pleasant, easy path forever. But of course, that's not true for any of us. Now, I find it much easier to see through the illusion than I did.

Kenny Embry:

What is your relationship with God look like? Now,

Matt Bassford:

I think that one of the things that happened is that it forced me to confront my own helplessness. By nature. I am a planner. I am the kind of guy who reads articles about saving for retirement for fun. And I want to look years and decades down the road and try to deal wisely, with the problems that I see might arise. Ultimately, though, if you start trusting in yourself too much, then you find yourself ending up squarely in the parable of the rich fool. The reality is that in terms of anything on Earth, that we value, our jobs, our families, our prosperity, our health, there is nothing we can do to safeguard those things. And what's more, God is not promised that he is going to safeguard those things either. And so even while you you plan and you prepare, at some level, you have to acknowledge that all of that planning and preparation may well prove to be in vain. So rather than trusting in yourself and your wisdom and your ability, you just have to trust God and believe that he will keep the promises that he has made. That even though that the Bible is very upfront that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God. If we are steadfast if we remain true to him, then we will enter it. And once we do that even the greatest sufferings that this life has to offer will pale into insignificance.

Kenny Embry:

How did your wife react? What was the difference there,

Matt Bassford:

I think it was even harder on her than it was on me. Even though I think that grief is more acceptable for women than for men in our society, I think the grief is greater. And once again, I'm going to say this because I know she doesn't have a problem with me saying it. But in the immediate aftermath of that, she struggled with the temptation to commit suicide. And that too, is something to watch out for and be wary of. I mean, thankfully, she did not. And came through it experienced a lot of the same changes that I did, I think, would endorse a lot of what I've said, philosophically. But that also led her to contemplate a career change that she would not have considered before. One of the things that I remember is the hospital put us in touch with this grief support person. And it was just absolutely awful. It was one of the most depressing experiences of our lives. Because even though this woman was some denominational pastor's wife, it was very obvious from listening to her, she did not believe in the resurrection, she did not believe in life after death. And so she kept on talking about how our daughter was going to live on in our hearts and all this other garbage. We came away from that disgusted. And it left my wife feeling so discontented with that, that she ended up going to graduate school and getting a master's degree in social work. Wow. So that in situations like that, that she can provide true hope and true comfort. And right now, she is not working because she is homeschooling our kids. But I suspect that she will reenter the workforce at some point when she does that is likely to do hospice work, and would really like to do pediatric hospice work. I think in her you really see Second Corinthians one and action, where you receive comfort from God. And then you look to turn around and comfort those who are in the same affliction.

Kenny Embry:

Did you all reach out for help to somebody,

Matt Bassford:

I think one of the wise things that we did, was to really bury ourselves, in our church family when that happens, because some people want to close off and isolate themselves, because they're not comfortable with the display of grief. That's not the course that we took, we were very open about our suffering. Our brethren in the congregation, they were amazing. They were there for us. So completely, like, just to give you one example, somebody decided that we needed a meal train and the way that they brought food to us there was so much we had to put like 90% of it in the freezer, and we ate off of this stuff for like the next three months. In retrospect, that may actually have been really helpful. Because that was one less source of stress in our lives, that there were brethren all over the country who reached out to us, we still have a box that is full of cards that we received, there were people who were not even particularly close to us, who decided, you know, I agree for them. I am going to take time off of work and I'm going to drive 1000 miles to that funeral so that I can comfort them. I cannot do justice, to all the things that Christians did for us. That just rambling on for the next half hour. Yeah, I am so thankful for the love that they expressed. I will I will remember it. As long as I live and all of you you know who you are. I have not forgotten. Thank you and I love you.

Kenny Embry:

It sounds like your daughter has left quite a legacy for such a sort of life.

Matt Bassford:

I think that's true. The whole experience had a tremendous impact on us. Whenever I hear people running down Christians running down the church and talking about how awful brethren are. I think we have to remember Not just the bad stories, which if they happen to us are very easy to dwell on and become embittered about. But we have to remember to the extraordinary good that disciples of Jesus are capable of the extraordinary heights to which they can arise.

Kenny Embry:

That makes a lot of sense to me. I'm calling this this idea of wonderfully broken the the idea that many times we don't understand the stories of the people that are in a Pew right next to us. Right. And we don't understand their struggles. Right? A friend of mine describes it this way. She said, we judge our insides by everybody else's outsides.

Matt Bassford:

Yes. Our view of everyone is projection.

Kenny Embry:

Yeah, that's right. They're dressed up real nice. They smell clean. Their kids are not yes or not misbehaving. Apparently, they've got their life together.

Matt Bassford:

Yes. Even if they were like fighting each other cats and dogs in the car on the way to serve. So here they are, and that they look like they're ready to go to the photo album. Yeah,

Kenny Embry:

Matt. And you know, as all as I do, everybody has the same experience, which is the fights break out back in the car again? Yes, you can't even get out of the parking lot. So I see that. I'm just gonna say this. And I hope you take it in the right spirit. People who have experienced this, like you, frankly, make us uncomfortable, because we don't know what to do. We want to support you. But we don't know how. How do we do that?

Matt Bassford:

Well, I said that I have all these stories about the wonderful things that people did for us. And I mean, there were occasional tacky comments, but those were very occasional. And the one story that really stands out, this would have been just a day or two. after it happened. Lauren wasn't even out of the hospital yet. So she and I were sitting around, and then the hospital room trying to process trying to do I don't even know what Yeah, two brothers from church came by to see us and we're, I won't name them. They were Josh Collier, and Chris puti, two of the members at Joliet, they came into the room. And they said, We are here, we are sorry that this has happened to you. We have no idea what to say. So we're not going to try to fix things and make things better. But we're here and we love you. I think a lot of the time, when we're dealing with someone who has suffered that horrible loss, we feel responsible for coming up with these wise words of healing, that are going to make the problem go away that are going to make them feel better. And that's just not realistic. If someone is grieving the death of a loved one, especially something like that, you are not going to fix things. There is this horribly, long, bitter road ahead of these people. That being the case, don't try the wisest thing that Job's three friends did, was to sit there for a week and say nothing. It is so deeply meaningful. To have people who are going through this with you know that they are there, I didn't know that they are with you, I didn't know that they love you. That is the most precious gift that we can give one another in a time like that. If we confine ourselves to that, then we will accomplish great good that just as it is hard to imagine getting through a tragedy like that without God, it's really hard to imagine getting through a tragedy like that without God's people. The emotional support of other Christians makes the most incredible difference.

Kenny Embry:

What's the worst thing we could do in a situation like that? My guess is everybody has the right intentions. But they don't understand what the wrong thing to do looks like.

Matt Bassford:

I think the worst thing to do is, and again, the people who did this were very well meaning I don't blame them for it at all. But to try to diminish the awfulness of the experience or the intensity of the suffering. Like there was one sister who told my wife, it's alright, you can have more kids. You know, while true and thankfully, things have worked out that way. We have two healthy, wonderful children in the moment. That is not helpful. And I understand why people say things like that. Because part of it is a desire to help. Part of it is that our culture is really uncomfortable with grief. And feels like okay, you shouldn't you shouldn't mourn for six weeks, that's a decent interval and then you should go on with your life. So because we have that discussion comfort with it. It's like we want to minimize it try to try to make it go away. Yeah. Well, when, in reality, that's just not the way that he would be exploring

Kenny Embry:

What's your relationship with God. Now,

Matt Bassford:

I would say that it has continued to grow stronger. And I think alluded to this earlier. That one of the things that suffering an earthly loss like that really makes you fix your hope on God, you know, if my wife were doing this podcast with me, she would tell you that for her, one of the great big reasons in her heart, why she wants to go to heaven, is because she wants to see her daughter. And that will always be there. And I think all of us, you know, on some level intellectually, know that we have problems that only God can solve. But when you got get that, then that's another matter entirely.

Kenny Embry:

I think it's easy to go into Hobby Lobby and see the pictures that say, trust God or something like that. It's it's a very different experience when that's all you got.

Matt Bassford:

And I think that it definitely gives you a different understanding of what that means. Because, you know, if you're sort of operating on the the cutesy level of Hobby Lobby Christianity, yeah. And then trusting God is blue skies and rainbows and sunbeams from heaven. Oh, I trust God. And it's so sweet. It's so comforting. Yeah, that's trusting God, I think, because you want to, as opposed to your life is upended, whether because of some life altering sin, or just a life altering event. And you are forced to confront your own inadequacy. And then you turn to God, because there is nowhere else to turn, you know, that sounds so noble, but it's not really very noble at all. It's not an enjoyable place to be that you are turning to God, because he is your only hope. Because you have been brought nose to nose with the failure of every resource that you possess. And you are devastated and you are broken. It is either God or giving up on life.

Kenny Embry:

Do you feel like you're still broken?

Matt Bassford:

Yes, that's an easy one. That is always going to be there. And I mean, I can go about my day I can I can live a normal life, I can find joy in life. And yet, there is always that knowledge this has happened, that I live in a world where these things happen. And that something just as awful easily can happen again, when my other children were born. There were no problems. In either case, they both came out of the womb, very healthy. And yet, in the especially in the later part of Lauren's pregnancies, I was oppressed by this dread that what had happened before what happened again? Yeah, I obviously couldn't talk about that to her. But that is always there. It is always in the background. That, you know, just just yesterday, our kids went out for a walk down the country road north of our subdivision. And they were out later than we were expecting them to be. And, you know, in the back of my mind, there, there was this question, Has something happened? backed by the knowledge that something can happen. Yeah. And that things like that do happen. And I don't I don't think that's something that you ever outlive, or ever outgrow that you you just spend the rest of your life with a sense of earthly imperfection and brokenness.

Kenny Embry:

I'm sure you feel grief still. I'm sure you still have what we would call negative emotions. How do you deal with those differently now

Matt Bassford:

that they're much less intense than they were? And I get, I get the feeling that you sense as we've been talking that I feel very comfortable talking about all this stuff. And that's because these are very Very well worn mental pads for me that I have been wrestling with this stuff long enough that I am content with the answers that I've got. And I feel confident that they're the best answers available. Sometimes when we look at somebody who is in a dramatically different situation than we are in, like, for instance, somebody who's in an accident, and then has to spend the rest of their life paralyzed. So, you know, you have this young, strong athlete who has now reduced to spending the rest of his life in a wheelchair. Yeah. The funny thing about the human race, both the blessing and the curse, is that we can get used to anything. And so you know, this burden that seems so awful to you. This is just life to me. And going along my way, as I do, just seems very unremarkable to me, because this is life. And yet, part of what this is doing is actually making me step back and evaluate where I am. And I think the fact that I'm able to do that, and to live a life without being just forever smashed flat by this thing that has happened, because there are people who do there are people who suffer losses like that and never get over them. Yeah. The fact that I have been able to go on. And the fact that my wife has been able to go on is an amazing testimonial to the love and to the mercy of God.

Kenny Embry:

if somebody were to experience something similar. What would you tell them?

Matt Bassford:

I would tell them, I'm so sorry. I love you. I am here for you. If you want somebody to talk these things through with that I'm here. And if you need somebody to talk to six months from now, or nine months from now, that I am still here.

Kenny Embry:

Well, let me change gears a little bit. You write songs.

Matt Bassford:

I do.

Kenny Embry:

Tell me a little bit about that.

Matt Bassford:

This actually much predates the events that I've been talking about. I've been writing hymns actually, since I was just a teenager back in the mid to late 90s. And these days, I have turned my attention to writing what's called assaulter. And what assaulter is, is a collection of songs like the book of Psalms that have been paraphrased so that now they are in rhyme and meter and look like a hymn that is in our hymn books. And so that you can sing them just like you would sing a hymn. And we sing a few of these, like hallelujah praise, Jehovah, for instance, is a paraphrase of Psalm 148. But our coverage there is very incomplete that we don't have the same tradition of Psalm singing, for instance, that the Presbyterian Church does, right. And in a lot of ways, I think that deprives us of our spiritual heritage. Because when you look at the Psalms, a lot of them are very dark, that you have various solidness dealing with betrayal, illness, just all of these awful trials if Psalm 51, where David is grappling with the enormity of his own sin. And we tend not to be very comfortable with those we certainly don't sing those songs. Or if we do we twist them like for instance, I think Psalm 42 is a psalm that is about the experience of depression and seeking God and depression. Yet the song that we sing that comes out of Psalm 42 is as the deer which is this light, fluffy, happy, bouncy kind of song. Yeah, our song repertoire shows a tremendous discomfort with the darker side of human existence that is revealed in the songs by shying away from those things. I think we leave ourselves unequipped with the spiritual vocabulary that we need when inevitably those those hard times come upon us. Right that you have a Christian who goes to church and never sings anything of that is about depression. Yeah, and they go through an episode of depression in their lives. And for years, people have said things like, well, if you're depressed then that that's a sign of spiritual weakness on your part. That's a spiritual failure. That just simply isn't reckoning with the Psalms that show us how to look for God in the midst of depression. Yeah, that when you feel like you are drowning, like the Psalm is dead in Psalm 42, how can you cry out to God in that? How can you bring that sort of thing before God? Yeah. And we need that vocabulary, that God is a God who is big enough for our anger, and our sorrow and our depression, and our resentment and all the other awful things that we go through in our lives that we can bring before His throne? Yeah, all of those things that show our brokenness, yeah, that God is big enough to hear those things from us, even in the songs we sing to him.

Kenny Embry:

I've likened the relationship that we have with God as the relationship that we have with our dad. And I use that terminology very intentionally. When we're with our earthly Dad, what we will do is we will often complain about the things that we want to complain about. And it's really a more unfiltered conversation that we'll have with our dad, and our dad can take it. And I think God is very much the same way. I think I'm one of those very few people that think Job got it right. That Job just complained and complained and complained. And then God stepped in and said, Look, you just don't understand this stuff. I think it was a close relationship that Job had?

Matt Bassford:

Well, I guess I also am one of those few people who thinks that about job because at the end of Job, God condemns the three friends, yes. But he says job was right, your right job and everything that you said, and who would like to argue with God and say that? Okay, this shows job, spiritual problems. I mean, come on. No, they're too I think we have this this powerful example of someone who is dealing with a truly unimaginable loss. Yeah, is not at all shy about taking it before God and expressing his anger and his frustration and his hurt. And at the end, God does not say, Yep, you got it. All right, show. Right. But God doesn't blame him either. Right? Because God is not going to feel defensive. Because of the things we say to him. God is not going to feel threatened

Kenny Embry:

or surprised.

Matt Bassford:

I mean, it's not like we can hide these thoughts and feelings that we have, just because we don't put them in the prayer with in Jesus name. Amen. At the end. Yeah, that's exactly right. So there is no point in trying to hide the ugly from God. Yeah. And there's no reason to hide the ugly from God. Anyway, he's mindful of our frame. And I think like a dad,

Kenny Embry:

I've got a pretty good idea when my kids are just acting up to act up. Do they need to ask forgiveness? Yeah, because they don't need to be doing what they're doing. But do I hold it against them? Really? I've been there. And I know my kids.

Matt Bassford:

Yeah, I know that there are times when I can look at my son. And I know exactly what he is thinking. Because he is just as ornery as his dad is. And he is up to the same stance that I was up to when I was his age. Yeah. God knows us to with God. There don't have to be any secrets because there can't be any secrets anyway,

Kenny Embry:

right? And in those kind of relationships, I think of you know, my relationship with my kids my relationship with my father. I can absolutely hear my dad saying, Why are you being such an idiot right now? I know what you did. I know what you did. Yeah, just stop being stupid. People have been trying to hide from God since the beginning. It has never, ever worked. So really, why try? Well, Matt, I really appreciate this conversation. I end all of my podcasts with be good and do good. What is good,

Matt Bassford:

I think good is steadfastly seeking God. Even when you do not see the outcome, even when you do not see how the outcome can be good. Continue to see God anyway.

Kenny Embry:

If somebody wanted to try and get a hold of you, how could they do that?

Matt Bassford:

Let me say also that simply because I've gone through this, that whenever I hear of a brother who has lost a child, I tried to reach out to them and let them know that I'm available. So if you're listening to this and you would like to talk to me about it, then I would definitely be happy to sit with you and try to help you work through all of the work that you are dealing with. And I'm very fundable on Facebook, at Matthew w bathroom. Drop me a message. If you want me to friend you, we'll talk. You could email me at m and l bassford@gmail.com. And if you have reactions about anything that I said I'd love to hear it. Well, Matt,

Kenny Embry:

thank you so much for doing this man. I really appreciate you talking about your story.

Matt Bassford:

This is something that I think I need to talk about. Because for so many it's a taboo topic, which means that we are depriving people of the perspective that they need when they most need it. Yeah, silence here doesn't benefit anybody. God bless you, man.

Kenny Embry:

I hope you see how Matt's relationship with God and his wife are deeper. Matt, thank you for having an honest conversation about a really hard topic. I'm hoping to have more conversations about how we are all wonderfully broken, and how that brokenness makes us stronger. I again want to thank those who support the podcast like my mother, George Sanchez, Kevin Hanson, Barbara McElwain, and Craig Embry. I also want to support a couple other podcasts, how Hammons has a good one called the citizen of heaven. And I had a truly delightful conversation with my buddy, Chris Emerson, and my new friend. How about digital discipleship. I've also been very impressed with stuff my buddy Darren Curtis is doing on his podcast, the leader Smith, oh, and a new fun for me was devotional doctors. It almost sounds like I need to come up with a list of these. I'm just grateful. Good. People are doing good work with these tools. So until next week, let's be good and do good.